A conversation with a Islamic gentleman about:
Paul; the Gospel of John; James - the very brother of Jesus; and what the true Jewish messiah must be like; and...
If Jesus was truly the messiah that the whole Jewish world was waiting for.... then why didn't John the Baptist start following him?
Why didn't he have a single follower or disciple before the baptism?
Or, why didn't he, the apostles, James, or John the baptist ever write anything down?
If any of the 15 people (Jesus; John the B.; the 12; and James) did write anything... Nothing survived
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Ross Goodwin:
If any of the 15 people (Jesus; John the B.; the 12; and James) did write anything... Nothing survived
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Ross Goodwin:
Maregaal Yaakov,
Those are all great questions and ones that I don’t have answers too but I do have my opinion 😁 and my opinion is that how do we know that John didn’t follow Jesus if all we have to go by is the New Testament which has been proven is an unreliable source at best? The Disciples of Jesus were probably illiterate as most people were up until just a couple of hundred years ago. Obviously I do believe that Jesus is the Messiah. I know there was no mention of the Messiah dying in the Torah and there were things left undone as far as prophecy goes but we believe that Jesus was saved from Crucifixion and will return one day to bring peace on Earth and complete the prophecy.
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Maregaal:
Ross Goodwin,
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Maregaal:
Ross Goodwin,
as a Jewish dude, that has no horse in this race....
Sound theolgy is way better than theology that trips over itself time and time again, as Christiandom does.
Even, though I personally don't accept Islamic views of Jesus being saved from Crucifixion historically.... Islamic views flow better and is more acceptable in many ways theologically.
Ummm, regarding your question....
There is a ton of homework to learn for certain things, but as a Jewish dude.... One can see right from the get-go that John was not written 1) by a Jew and 2) not by an eyewitness.
A Muslim with your more Jewish wavelength in pure monotheism can see or should see that something is very wrong with John.
Right at the very beginning we see that Jesus was actually the one creating the world, not God. This Jesus in John is this logos/demiurge creature or being God created. Being actually created according to Paul first and then John second, which John was written way after Paul died. Paul is the first author of the NT.
This logos/demiurge theology or philosophy was floating around from about 50 bce to at least 150 bce and possibly beyond... Over time Arius (from Alexandria) the "heretic" got it right, whereas the rest of the Nicene council got it wrong.
You might want to research demiurge / logos.
The premise of the whole book is false.... God does not even have a son, let alone sending a son into the world.
In John, not one single law of Moses commandment is mentioned, whereas in the other 3 gospels, there are plenty.
In John, salvation is not like the Jewish and Islamic way, by being set apart and holy, walking upright and keeping the commandments faithfully, so it is your righteous deeds and correct doctrine that grants you salvation.
In John's gospel, salvation is based on Paul's theology, where Torah observance has nothing to do with it at all, but a mere belief that Jesus is the one that God sent into the world and who made atonement for you by making himself an atonement offering for sin.
This is why the Islamic faith is sooooo heretical in the eyes of Christians, because they outright deny the whole entire process of how atonement was made, the sacrifice of his very body and the shedding of his blood.....
Jesus is supposed to be like all the other atonement offerings that were made in the past with actual animals and their blood given to make atonement, like this, but far better.
Christians, thanks to Paul alone.... make God into a major 🅜︎🅐︎🅙︎🅞︎🅡︎ hypocrite and they don't even see it.
Because human sacrifice is an abomination to the Almighty. Yet, they claim He never changes, yet God suddenly goes against His ways and accepts a human sacrifice for the atonement of the world.
The gnostics were people that based things on "knowledge." So we see John is gnostic in nature, because it is based on a certain knowledge.
Jesus, in reality, was a first century orthodox Jew, among all the different flavors of Torah observant Jews of the time.
The true messiah of Judaism must set up a theocratic monarchy, way better than the beginnings of the Ottoman Empire, for they were a theocratic Monarchy. Thus, all his disciples and people must be Torah observant. We get this type of Jesus in Matthew and with James who became the head of the sect after Jesus died. We see this in Acts 21:20, how he and all with him were strict Torah observant people. Paul in this set of passages decieves James to make it appear he is still Torah observant.... However, when he goes to the Temple, the people know who he is and he almost gets killed because of being a true apostate that he was.
Sound theolgy is way better than theology that trips over itself time and time again, as Christiandom does.
Even, though I personally don't accept Islamic views of Jesus being saved from Crucifixion historically.... Islamic views flow better and is more acceptable in many ways theologically.
Ummm, regarding your question....
There is a ton of homework to learn for certain things, but as a Jewish dude.... One can see right from the get-go that John was not written 1) by a Jew and 2) not by an eyewitness.
A Muslim with your more Jewish wavelength in pure monotheism can see or should see that something is very wrong with John.
Right at the very beginning we see that Jesus was actually the one creating the world, not God. This Jesus in John is this logos/demiurge creature or being God created. Being actually created according to Paul first and then John second, which John was written way after Paul died. Paul is the first author of the NT.
This logos/demiurge theology or philosophy was floating around from about 50 bce to at least 150 bce and possibly beyond... Over time Arius (from Alexandria) the "heretic" got it right, whereas the rest of the Nicene council got it wrong.
You might want to research demiurge / logos.
The premise of the whole book is false.... God does not even have a son, let alone sending a son into the world.
In John, not one single law of Moses commandment is mentioned, whereas in the other 3 gospels, there are plenty.
In John, salvation is not like the Jewish and Islamic way, by being set apart and holy, walking upright and keeping the commandments faithfully, so it is your righteous deeds and correct doctrine that grants you salvation.
In John's gospel, salvation is based on Paul's theology, where Torah observance has nothing to do with it at all, but a mere belief that Jesus is the one that God sent into the world and who made atonement for you by making himself an atonement offering for sin.
This is why the Islamic faith is sooooo heretical in the eyes of Christians, because they outright deny the whole entire process of how atonement was made, the sacrifice of his very body and the shedding of his blood.....
Jesus is supposed to be like all the other atonement offerings that were made in the past with actual animals and their blood given to make atonement, like this, but far better.
Christians, thanks to Paul alone.... make God into a major 🅜︎🅐︎🅙︎🅞︎🅡︎ hypocrite and they don't even see it.
Because human sacrifice is an abomination to the Almighty. Yet, they claim He never changes, yet God suddenly goes against His ways and accepts a human sacrifice for the atonement of the world.
The gnostics were people that based things on "knowledge." So we see John is gnostic in nature, because it is based on a certain knowledge.
Jesus, in reality, was a first century orthodox Jew, among all the different flavors of Torah observant Jews of the time.
The true messiah of Judaism must set up a theocratic monarchy, way better than the beginnings of the Ottoman Empire, for they were a theocratic Monarchy. Thus, all his disciples and people must be Torah observant. We get this type of Jesus in Matthew and with James who became the head of the sect after Jesus died. We see this in Acts 21:20, how he and all with him were strict Torah observant people. Paul in this set of passages decieves James to make it appear he is still Torah observant.... However, when he goes to the Temple, the people know who he is and he almost gets killed because of being a true apostate that he was.
Maregaal
2/18/2022
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