Monday, February 21, 2022

Info about the Garden and the Trees

 A question from a reader about the garden of Eden and the 2 trees. His English is broken, but that is okay.




Maregaal Yaakov,
Do you know who are the tree next to the tree of life,,, known as the tree of knowledge of good and bad,,,,,who is that tree,??


Johannes Roos,
Hey, good evening. This myth in the Jewish bible is borrowed from Babylonian, Assyrian, Urartu cultures. The tree of life in those cultures is basically a tree that gives eternal life to those that eat if it. Most of the time we see kings eating from it and the gods of those cultures are nearby whoever king it is. Whether we originally had something like this in our polytheistic days is very hard to say, because we actually committed suicide culturally speaking by discarding our polytheism. Nonetheless..... Here is the basic teaching of the Torah, theologically speaking

Adam and Eve were in the garden in the "East."

"East" of where? particularly Jerusalem, the City of HaShem.

Adam was told he may eat of any tree in the garden that had fruit, which included that tree of life.

They were also told there is just one tree that they must not eat from and that was the tree of knowledge.

Hashem uses the word, "surely" in the statement, "...the day you eat of it you will surely die." Keep this in mind.

Now because the tree of life is there and it grants eternal life, it goes without saying that mankind, that being Adam and Eve at that point, were destined to die in the normal manner of life and their only way to escape death was to take of the Tree of Life. However, before they got the chance to eat of the Tree of Life the serpent came and persuaded them to eat of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil first.

And, when they did Hashem fulfilled the word, "surely" unto them by putting cherubim in the way/path to guard them from reaching out and grabbing the fruit of the Tree of Life which was the only way for them to escape death,  thus they "surely" died in due course.

And because of this one particular sin several things happened as a consequence in this mythology all at once.

1. why there are weeds.
2. why we humans work so hard to get food when the beasts of the field don't have to work so hard as it seems
3. Why women have a hard time with labor compared to the animals.
4. Why women have a hard time with pregnancy and conception when compared to the other animals
5. Why we die even though we are made in His image.
6. Why the serpent has no legs or why it will slither on the ground
7. Why humans are the only specie to wear clothes
8. Why mankind are generally scared of snakes

The story moves on because it is a myth and so Genesis speaks about Adam's kids and how Israel came about in due course.

The story moves on so fast that it doesn't mention it still exists somewhere or it stayed around till the flood and the flood killed the tree, even though its supposed to grant eternal life.

In the myth where we borrowed it from, the standing serpent is a diety in ancient Sumer. Possibly Ningishzida or
Ninazu

Maregaal
2/21/2022
11:09 pm


Paul, the messiah and the Gospel of John

 A conversation with a Islamic gentleman about:

Paul; the Gospel of John; James - the very brother of Jesus; and what the true Jewish messiah must be like; and...





Maregaal:
If Jesus was truly the messiah that the whole Jewish world was waiting for.... then why didn't John the Baptist start following him? 
Why didn't he have a single follower or disciple before the baptism?
Or, why didn't he, the apostles, James, or John the baptist ever write anything down?

If any of the 15 people (Jesus; John the B.; the 12; and James) did write anything... Nothing survived

***************

Ross Goodwin:

Maregaal Yaakov,
Those are all great questions and ones that I don’t have answers too but I do have my opinion 😁 and my opinion is that how do we know that John didn’t follow Jesus if all we have to go by is the New Testament which has been proven is an unreliable source at best? The Disciples of Jesus were probably illiterate as most people were up until just a couple of hundred years ago. Obviously I do believe that Jesus is the Messiah. I know there was no mention of the Messiah dying in the Torah and there were things left undone as far as prophecy goes but we believe that Jesus was saved from Crucifixion and will return one day to bring peace on Earth and complete the prophecy.

***************

Maregaal:

Ross Goodwin,
as a Jewish dude, that has no horse in this race....

Sound theolgy is way better than theology that trips over itself time and time again, as Christiandom does.

Even, though I personally don't accept Islamic views of Jesus being saved from Crucifixion historically.... Islamic views flow better and is more acceptable in many ways theologically.

Ummm, regarding your question....

There is a ton of homework to learn for certain things, but as a Jewish dude.... One can see right from the get-go that John was not written 1) by a Jew and 2) not by an eyewitness.

A Muslim with your more Jewish wavelength in pure monotheism can see or should see that something is very wrong with John.

Right at the very beginning we see that Jesus was actually the one creating the world, not God. This Jesus in John is this logos/demiurge creature or being God created. Being actually created according to Paul first and then John second, which John was written way after Paul died. Paul is the first author of the NT.

This logos/demiurge theology or philosophy was floating around from about 50 bce to at least 150 bce and possibly beyond... Over time Arius (from Alexandria) the "heretic" got it right, whereas the rest of the Nicene council got it wrong.

You might want to research demiurge / logos.

The premise of the whole book is false.... God does not even have a son, let alone sending a son into the world.

In John, not one single law of Moses commandment is mentioned, whereas in the other 3 gospels, there are plenty.

In John, salvation is not like the Jewish and Islamic way, by being set apart and holy, walking upright and keeping the commandments faithfully, so it is your righteous deeds and correct doctrine that grants you salvation.

In John's gospel, salvation is based on Paul's theology, where Torah observance has nothing to do with it at all, but a mere belief that Jesus is the one that God sent into the world and who made atonement for you by making himself an atonement offering for sin.

This is why the Islamic faith is sooooo heretical in the eyes of Christians, because they outright deny the whole entire process of how atonement was made, the sacrifice of his very body and the shedding of his blood.....

Jesus is supposed to be like all the other atonement offerings that were made in the past with actual animals and their blood given to make atonement, like this, but far better.

Christians, thanks to Paul alone.... make God into a major 🅜︎🅐︎🅙︎🅞︎🅡︎ hypocrite and they don't even see it.

Because human sacrifice is an abomination to the Almighty. Yet, they claim He never changes, yet God suddenly goes against His ways and accepts a human sacrifice for the atonement of the world.

The gnostics were people that based things on "knowledge." So we see John is gnostic in nature, because it is based on a certain knowledge.

Jesus, in reality, was a first century orthodox Jew, among all the different flavors of Torah observant Jews of the time.

The true messiah of Judaism must set up a theocratic monarchy, way better than the beginnings of the Ottoman  Empire, for they were a theocratic Monarchy. Thus, all his disciples and people must be Torah observant. We get this type of Jesus in Matthew and with James who became the head of the sect after Jesus died. We see this in Acts 21:20, how he and all with him were strict Torah observant people. Paul in this set of passages decieves James to make it appear he is still Torah observant.... However, when he goes to the Temple, the people know who he is and he almost gets killed because of being a true apostate that he was.

Maregaal
2/18/2022

























Monday, February 14, 2022

Question by Bart Ehrman: My Response

 


Nothing of the sort in reality. But here is an educated guess:

The people deemed him as either the Christ or were hoping he would be such.... never anointed though.

A sect leader to a point... because the messiah must never die (just not scriptural), when he did, James took over as sect leader... and his crowd still kept Torah, but with greater zeal and inline with Jesus' personal teaching.

Then an apostate came around, hearing rumors about Jesus, knowing nothing of Jesus/Yeshua.... but trained in goofy philosophies.... deemed Jesus as this stupid logos/demiurge character.... so Jesus BECAME [in Paul's eyes] this pre-existing being that was created as the first of God's works at creation... but he was made with great power so in turn Jesus or this logos created everything else for God, but he himself was not a God. In time, this logos, was born naturally through the natural sperma way (Romans 1:3)... born under the law so he could be counted as worthy and blameless, made atonement for Israel under that system, then rose to usher in a new covenant by abolishing that barrier that separates Jew from Gentile (the law or Torah) and made them both into the "true Israel" based on Faith in God who gave his son as a sacrifice for sin.

___________________________

Del Preston responded to me:

logos? I think your confusing John and Paul

____________________________

I responded back to Del:

actually Im not....here is what paul writes...

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist," Col 1...

Paul considered him a pre-existing being and a created creature like everyone else below God...

Paul, however, did NOT believe he was God though

Whereas, the Gospel of John takes the logos or demiurge doctrine to another level

___________________

Del Preston writes back:

good point, yet some believe copyists change the nature of Paul’s writings by inserting teachings more palatable.  Like Paul saying there is no distinction among humans then later telling women to stay quiet and keep their head covered- in the same letter

____________________

I wrote back to Del:

the entire books of 1 & 2 timothy are.... but then a certain demiurge passage gets changed to "God"

Hold on...
____________________

1 Tim 3:16
King James verses NIV....

NIV follows old texts

KJ
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: [[God]] was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

NIV
Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: [[He]] appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

___________

By me to add to what I said above:

 Again, here is what Paul writes...

1 Cor 15
27For he [God] hath put all things under his [Jesus] feet. But when he [God] saith all things are put under him [Jesus], it is manifest [clear or obvious] that he [God] is excepted [or: not included[, which [who] did put all things under him [Jesus].
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him [Jesus], then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him [God] that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

_________________

Then I added this too:

Sorry, as a Jew... I really hate Paul. Don't see how a so-called Pharisee could utter the things he did. Just not biblical.


MAREGAAL
2/14/2022



Wednesday, February 9, 2022

"Original Sin" doctrine who Invented it?



PAUL INVENTED THE DOCTRINE OF "ORIGINAL SIN," not St. Augustine

WHY DR. LITWA AND GOOGLE MUST BE REJECTED

You will see why they need to be rejected through this letter I wrote

**********************

Jim,

You been watching a lot or too much of these shows and dont know reality or something.

I even brought up "original sin" on one of the shows here, where my question was a part of the program and the scholar mentioned that St. Augustine was the first to bring up "original sin." The scholar was Dr. M. David Litwa.

I would have to debate that because he (Augustine) gets the idea from Paul himself. Like: didn't the scholar know that? Paul himself, maybe, did not coin the phrase "original sin" but the doctrine came from Paul and that is very clear.

Here is what Google says when you type up:

"St. Augustine and Original Sin"

"Original sin is an Augustine Christian doctrine that says that everyone is born sinful. This means that they are born with a built-in urge to do bad things and to disobey God."

I say BS to Google and to Litwa for not knowing...


Here is what Paul wrote:

Romans 5
12¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead....
.... Therefore as by the offence of one  came upon all men to condemnation

...19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners

This is the true author of the "original sin" doctrine, not St. Augustine.

Here it is again:
1 Cor 15
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Here again, or continued from Romans 5....


ROMANS 7
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.
9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.
12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.
17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;
23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

SO LETS BE CLEAR....

PAUL  invented the doctrine of Original Sin.

Because sin didn't exist before Adam taking the fruit... he was good, according to Paul. But once he ate of the fruit he became a sinner.... and that sin was passed on to all his descendants. Adam was the first, thus that is the "original sin" doctrine and this "sin" or "spiritual stain" is passed on, according to Paul.

LITWA must be REJECTED and google.

I asked the question in the
"Dating Luke-Acts in light of Marcion" episode @ 1:01:27 (time)


Maregaal


#originalsin






Monday, January 24, 2022

Paul believed in the Demiurge

 



In this paper I discuss the personal beliefs of Paul and how he accepted this Demiurge character. This discussion got started after a person slammed me personally on a textual criticism forum.... so the first few original lines is dealing with that, but I chose to delete them here

***********

The "Jewish" messiah is merely a man, conceived naturally and born naturally. A direct descendant of David, Solomon, Hezekiah and Josiah. He literally conquers the enemies of Israel and all people regardless of them being enemies. So he conquers the world and he is king of the entire globe. His government shall be a theocratic monarchy. The Torah shall be the law code of his kingdom. That is the REAL Jewish messiah myth and legend.

Everything that the New Testament promotes is fake....

1) let's start with the premise... false = for God has no son, thus they are wrong from the get go.
2) he "must" be born in Bethlehem, false... rather his ancestry is from there
3) God contradicts Himself and makes Himself into a hypocrite by suddenly approving of a human sacrifice for sin, False
4) the messiah never dies
5) the messiah never dies in order to make an atonement for sin
6) the messiah ushers in a new covenant so that the Torah is no longer required (this is one of the most egregious ones and so opposite of the messiah myth)
7) the messiah ascends to heaven and will be gone for over 2,000 years before returning, false)

Most non-Jews don't know this. However, because you openly and blindly accept the New Testament as TRUTH or regard it as holding a great swath of truth, it is understandable why you believe the way you do and then apply that thinking on our book.

*************

Moving on

The  Gospels of Matthew and Luke say he was adopted by a dude named Joseph and that Joseph was of the line of David.

Ahhh, who cares about Joseph, it has nooooo bearing on the lineage of Jesus.

If you watched the video at all.... I point out that ONLY Paul claims something of worthiness,  2 things actually [for historical value]:

1) he was conceived naturally
2) he came from the sperma of David

Read Romans 1:3 clearly and in Greek.

Problem with Paul, he believed in the Demiurge philosophy which was circling around Israel at the time.  Between 50 BCE to 150 CE actually.

Paul then took the extra leap by assuming Jesus WAS this demiurge or logos character.

Thus, making this demigod type of being into flesh; this "craftsman" into flesh. Logos also meant craftsman at the time, not just "word" as you see in English texts in John 1.

So you can write, "In the beginning was the craftsman, and the craftsman was with God..."

This is sooooo foul of a doctrine it is pathetic... later the Gentile church leaders ... changed Jesus from this demiurge to fully God and a part of some Trinity goyish theology. 

You really need to do your homework on the Nicene council and understand Arius.... BECAUSE Arius represented Paul and John 1:1-18 correctly. 

Paul said in Col 1:15-17, that Jesus was a "created" being, created before the heavens and earth were created.

Learn something will you!!!

Col 1:15.... " He is.... the firstborn of every creature"

Lets see...

Firstborn is "prōtotokos / πρωτότοκος" which means....

The first to be born or to come into existence, whether of man, animal or spirits

"Creature" means beast, mankind or anything below God Himself

"Creature" is used in this following verse by Paul no less...

Romans 1:25
"Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."

Paul is talking about the golden calf here. So, with Paul's theology, it is very clear Jesus is NOT the God of Israel in any way, shape or form. Rather, he is like a contractor working  for the God of Israel. Jesus being the heavenly craftsman in Paul's thinking

To summarize Paul's thinking in a nutshell:

HaShem told this Demiurge what to do and he did it for Him. In time, this pre-existing "creature" got incarnated in the man Jesus.

Now Paul DOESN'T say "how" this demiurge became flesh: 

Not whether this creature was inserted in the seed of Joseph and so no normal new soul was created. For many believe that the soul is created upon conception. Whereas others claim that all souls were created at the beginning and that they are inserted at conception.

...or whether this creature's spirit merely  rested upon Jesus (like some Ebionites believed, though that doesnt work, just making a point).

Yep, in truth, Paul doesn't get that deep, he just taught Jesus was conceived naturally as we see in Romans 1:3 and at the same time he was this logos.

Do yourself a favor, stop insulting everyone.

Shalom and Good Day,
Maregaal

********************
Some extra things
********************

If you want to know what the Jewish messiah is about, then try learning from a Jew that practices Judaism. I dont say this lightly either, but from one that can back up the messiah myth through the Tanach.

Any Judaic Jew knows these teachings

*) Daniel 2, he conquers the world.
*) Micah 5 ancestry is from Bethlehem
*) The Torah is his penal code Deut 17
*) The torah is forever Deut 4:40;
    12:28


Thank you,
Maregaal








Tuesday, January 18, 2022

Epic of Gilgamesh

 

THE EPIC OF GILGAMESH

Translated by Maureen Gallery Kovacs
Electronic Edition by Wolf Carnahan, I998

TABLET XI THE STORY OF THE FLOOD

Gilgamesh spoke to Utanapishtim, the Faraway:
"I have been looking at you,
but your appearance is not strange--you are like me!
You yourself are not different--you are like me!
My mind was resolved to fight with you,
(but instead?) my arm lies useless over you.
Tell me, how is it that you stand in the Assembly of the Gods,
and have found life!"
Utanapishtim spoke to Gilgamesh, saying:
"I will reveal to you, Gilgamesh, a thing that is hidden,
a secret of the gods I will tell you!
Shuruppak, a city that you surely know,
situated on the banks of the Euphrates,
that city was very old, and there were gods inside it.
The hearts of the Great Gods moved them to inflict the Flood.
Their Father Anu uttered the oath (of secrecy),
Valiant Enlil was their Adviser,
Ninurta was their Chamberlain,
Ennugi was their Minister of Canals.
Ea, the Clever Prince(?), was under oath with them
so he repeated their talk to the reed house:
'Reed house, reed house! Wall, wall!
O man of Shuruppak, son of Ubartutu:
Tear down the house and build a boat!
Abandon wealth and seek living beings!
Spurn possessions and keep alive living beings!
Make all living beings go up into the boat.
The boat which you are to build,
its dimensions must measure equal to each other:
its length must correspond to its width.
Roof it over like the Apsu.
I understood and spoke to my lord, Ea:
'My lord, thus is the command which you have uttered
I will heed and will do it.
But what shall I answer the city, the populace, and the
Elders!'
Ea spoke, commanding me, his servant:
'You, well then, this is what you must say to them:
"It appears that Enlil is rejecting me
so I cannot reside in your city (?),
nor set foot on Enlil's earth.
I will go down to the Apsu to live with my lord, Ea,
and upon you he will rain down abundance,
a profusion of fowl, myriad(!) fishes.
He will bring to you a harvest of wealth,
in the morning he will let loaves of bread shower down,
and in the evening a rain of wheat!"'
Just as dawn began to glow
the land assembled around me-
the carpenter carried his hatchet,
the reed worker carried his (flattening) stone,
... the men ...
The child carried the pitch,
the weak brought whatever else was needed.
On the fifth day I laid out her exterior.
It was a field in area,
its walls were each 10 times 12 cubits in height,
the sides of its top were of equal length, 10 times It cubits each.
I laid out its (interior) structure and drew a picture of it (?).
I provided it with six decks,
thus dividing it into seven (levels).
The inside of it I divided into nine (compartments).
I drove plugs (to keep out) water in its middle part.
I saw to the punting poles and laid in what was necessary.
Three times 3,600 (units) of raw bitumen I poured into the
bitumen kiln,
three times 3,600 (units of) pitch ...into it,
there were three times 3,600 porters of casks who carried (vege-
table) oil,
apart from the 3,600 (units of) oil which they consumed (!)
and two times 3,600 (units of) oil which the boatman stored
away.
I butchered oxen for the meat(!),
and day upon day I slaughtered sheep.
I gave the workmen(?) ale, beer, oil, and wine, as if it were
river water,
so they could make a party like the New Year's Festival.
... and I set my hand to the oiling(!).
The boat was finished by sunset.
The launching was very difficult.
They had to keep carrying a runway of poles front to back,
until two-thirds of it had gone into the water(?).
Whatever I had I loaded on it:
whatever silver I had I loaded on it,
whatever gold I had I loaded on it.
All the living beings that I had I loaded on it,
I had all my kith and kin go up into the boat,
all the beasts and animals of the field and the craftsmen I
had go up.
Shamash had set a stated time:
'In the morning I will let loaves of bread shower down,
and in the evening a rain of wheat!
Go inside the boat, seal the entry!'
That stated time had arrived.
In the morning he let loaves of bread shower down,
and in the evening a rain of wheat.
I watched the appearance of the weather--
the weather was frightful to behold!
I went into the boat and sealed the entry.
For the caulking of the boat, to Puzuramurri, the boatman,
I gave the palace together with its contents.
Just as dawn began to glow
there arose from the horizon a black cloud.
Adad rumbled inside of it,
before him went Shullat and Hanish,
heralds going over mountain and land.
Erragal pulled out the mooring poles,
forth went Ninurta and made the dikes overflow.
The Anunnaki lifted up the torches,
setting the land ablaze with their flare.
Stunned shock over Adad's deeds overtook the heavens,
and turned to blackness all that had been light.
The... land shattered like a... pot.
All day long the South Wind blew ...,
blowing fast, submerging the mountain in water,
overwhelming the people like an attack.
No one could see his fellow,
they could not recognize each other in the torrent.
The gods were frightened by the Flood,
and retreated, ascending to the heaven of Anu.
The gods were cowering like dogs, crouching by the outer wall.
Ishtar shrieked like a woman in childbirth,
the sweet-voiced Mistress of the Gods wailed:
'The olden days have alas turned to clay,
because I said evil things in the Assembly of the Gods!
How could I say evil things in the Assembly of the Gods,
ordering a catastrophe to destroy my people!!
No sooner have I given birth to my dear people
than they fill the sea like so many fish!'
The gods--those of the Anunnaki--were weeping with her,
the gods humbly sat weeping, sobbing with grief(?),
their lips burning, parched with thirst.
Six days and seven nights
came the wind and flood, the storm flattening the land.
When the seventh day arrived, the storm was pounding,
the flood was a war--struggling with itself like a woman
writhing (in labor).
The sea calmed, fell still, the whirlwind (and) flood stopped up.
I looked around all day long--quiet had set in
and all the human beings had turned to clay!
The terrain was as flat as a roof.
I opened a vent and fresh air (daylight!) fell upon the side of
my nose.
I fell to my knees and sat weeping,
tears streaming down the side of my nose.
I looked around for coastlines in the expanse of the sea,
and at twelve leagues there emerged a region (of land).
On Mt. Nimush the boat lodged firm,
Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing no sway.
One day and a second Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing
no sway.
A third day, a fourth, Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing
no sway.
A fifth day, a sixth, Mt. Nimush held the boat, allowing
no sway.
When a seventh day arrived
I sent forth a dove and released it.
The dove went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.
I sent forth a swallow and released it.
The swallow went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.
I sent forth a raven and released it.
The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back.
It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me.
Then I sent out everything in all directions and sacrificed
(a sheep).
I offered incense in front of the mountain-ziggurat.
Seven and seven cult vessels I put in place,
and (into the fire) underneath (or: into their bowls) I poured
reeds, cedar, and myrtle.
The gods smelled the savor,
the gods smelled the sweet savor,
and collected like flies over a (sheep) sacrifice.
Just then Beletili arrived.
She lifted up the large flies (beads) which Anu had made for
his enjoyment(!):
'You gods, as surely as I shall not forget this lapis lazuli
around my neck,
may I be mindful of these days, and never forget them!
The gods may come to the incense offering,
but Enlil may not come to the incense offering,
because without considering he brought about the Flood
and consigned my people to annihilation.'
Just then Enlil arrived.
He saw the boat and became furious,
he was filled with rage at the Igigi gods:
'Where did a living being escape?
No man was to survive the annihilation!'
Ninurta spoke to Valiant Enlil, saying:
'Who else but Ea could devise such a thing?
It is Ea who knows every machination!'
La spoke to Valiant Enlil, saying:
'It is yours, O Valiant One, who is the Sage of the Gods.
How, how could you bring about a Flood without consideration
Charge the violation to the violator,
charge the offense to the offender,
but be compassionate lest (mankind) be cut off,
be patient lest they be killed.
Instead of your bringing on the Flood,
would that a lion had appeared to diminish the people!
Instead of your bringing on the Flood,
would that a wolf had appeared to diminish the people!
Instead of your bringing on the Flood,
would that famine had occurred to slay the land!
Instead of your bringing on the Flood,
would that (Pestilent) Erra had appeared to ravage the land!
It was not I who revealed the secret of the Great Gods,
I (only) made a dream appear to Atrahasis, and (thus) he
heard the secret of the gods.
Now then! The deliberation should be about him!'
Enlil went up inside the boat
and, grasping my hand, made me go up.
He had my wife go up and kneel by my side.
He touched our forehead and, standing between us, he
blessed us:
'Previously Utanapishtim was a human being.
But now let Utanapishtim and his wife become like us,
the gods!
Let Utanapishtim reside far away, at the Mouth of the Rivers.'
They took us far away and settled us at the Mouth of the Rivers."
"Now then, who will convene the gods on your behalf,
that you may find the life that you are seeking!
Wait! You must not lie down for six days and seven nights."
soon as he sat down (with his head) between his legs
sleep, like a fog, blew upon him.
Utanapishtim said to his wife:
"Look there! The man, the youth who wanted (eternal) life!
Sleep, like a fog, blew over him."
his wife said to Utanapishtim the Faraway:
"Touch him, let the man awaken.
Let him return safely by the way he came.
Let him return to his land by the gate through which he left."
Utanapishtim said to his wife:
"Mankind is deceptive, and will deceive you.
Come, bake loaves for him and keep setting them by his head
and draw on the wall each day that he lay down."
She baked his loaves and placed them by his head
and marked on the wall the day that he lay down.
The first loaf was dessicated,
the second stale, the third moist(?), the fourth turned white,
its ...,
the fifth sprouted gray (mold), the sixth is still fresh.
the seventh--suddenly he touched him and the man awoke.
Gilgamesh said to Utanapishtim:
"The very moment sleep was pouring over me
you touched me and alerted me!"
Utanapishtim spoke to Gilgamesh, saying:
"Look over here, Gilgamesh, count your loaves!
You should be aware of what is marked on the wall!
Your first loaf is dessicated,
the second stale, the third moist, your fourth turned white,
its ...
the fifth sprouted gray (mold), the sixth is still fresh.
The seventh--suddenly he touched him and the man awoke.
Gilgamesh said to Utanapishtim:
"The very moment sleep was pouring over me
you touched me and alerted me!"
Utanapishtim spoke to Gilgamesh, saying:
"Look over here, Gilgamesh, count your loaves!
You should be aware of what is marked on the wall!
Your first loaf is dessicated,
the second stale, the third moist, your fourth turned white,
its ...
the fifth sprouted gray (mold), the sixth is still fresh.
The seventh--at that instant you awoke!"
Gilgamesh said to Utanapishtim the Faraway:
"O woe! What shall I do, Utanapishtim, where shall I go!
The Snatcher has taken hold of my flesh,
in my bedroom Death dwells,
and wherever I set foot there too is Death!"
Home Empty-Handed
Utanapishtim said to Urshanabi, the ferryman:
"May the harbor reject you, may the ferry landing reject you!
May you who used to walk its shores be denied its shores!
The man in front of whom you walk, matted hair chains
his body,
animal skins have ruined his beautiful skin.
Take him away, Urshanabi, bring him to the washing place.
Let him wash his matted hair in water like ellu.
Let him cast away his animal skin and have the sea carry it off,
let his body be moistened with fine oil,
let the wrap around his head be made new,
let him wear royal robes worthy of him!
Until he goes off to his city,
until he sets off on his way,
let his royal robe not become spotted, let it be perfectly new!"
Urshanabi took him away and brought him to the washing place.
He washed his matted hair with water like ellu.
He cast off his animal skin and the sea carried it oh.
He moistened his body with fine oil,
and made a new wrap for his head.
He put on a royal robe worthy of him.
Until he went away to his city,
until he set off on his way,
his royal robe remained unspotted, it was perfectly clean.
Gilgamesh and Urshanabi bearded the boat,
they cast off the magillu-boat, and sailed away.
The wife of Utanapishtim the Faraway said to him:
"Gilgamesh came here exhausted and worn out.
What can you give him so that he can return to his land (with
honor) !"
Then Gilgamesh raised a punting pole
and drew the boat to shore.
Utanapishtim spoke to Gilgamesh, saying:
"Gilgamesh, you came here exhausted and worn out.
What can I give you so you can return to your land?
I will disclose to you a thing that is hidden, Gilgamesh,
a... I will tell you.
There is a plant... like a boxthorn,
whose thorns will prick your hand like a rose.
If your hands reach that plant you will become a young
man again."
Hearing this, Gilgamesh opened a conduit(!) (to the Apsu)
and attached heavy stones to his feet.
They dragged him down, to the Apsu they pulled him.
He took the plant, though it pricked his hand,
and cut the heavy stones from his feet,
letting the waves(?) throw him onto its shores.
Gilgamesh spoke to Urshanabi, the ferryman, saying:
"Urshanabi, this plant is a plant against decay(!)
by which a man can attain his survival(!).
I will bring it to Uruk-Haven,
and have an old man eat the plant to test it.
The plant's name is 'The Old Man Becomes a Young Man.'"
Then I will eat it and return to the condition of my youth."
At twenty leagues they broke for some food,
at thirty leagues they stopped for the night.
Seeing a spring and how cool its waters were,
Gilgamesh went down and was bathing in the water.
A snake smelled the fragrance of the plant,
silently came up and carried off the plant.
While going back it sloughed off its casing.'
At that point Gilgamesh sat down, weeping,
his tears streaming over the side of his nose.
"Counsel me, O ferryman Urshanabi!
For whom have my arms labored, Urshanabi!
For whom has my heart's blood roiled!
I have not secured any good deed for myself,
but done a good deed for the 'lion of the ground'!"
Now the high waters are coursing twenty leagues distant,'
as I was opening the conduit(?) I turned my equipment over
into it (!).
What can I find (to serve) as a marker(?) for me!
I will turn back (from the journey by sea) and leave the boat by
the shore!"
At twenty leagues they broke for some food,
at thirty leagues they stopped for the night.
They arrived in Uruk-Haven.
Gilgamesh said to Urshanabi, the ferryman:
"Go up, Urshanabi, onto the wall of Uruk and walk around.
Examine its foundation, inspect its brickwork thoroughly--
is not (even the core of) the brick structure of kiln-fired brick,
and did not the Seven Sages themselves lay out its plan!
One league city, one league palm gardens, one league lowlands, the open area(?) of the Ishtar Temple,
three leagues and the open area(?) of Uruk it encloses.

Did the Flood Happen; Questions About Noah

 


First, we cannot neglect physics and facts.

The water and moisture in our atmosphere comes through evaporation, regardless where the water comes from when it evaporates to get in the atmosphere.  Whether that is from oceans, creeks, streams, lakes and the like.

Thus, you cannot add to the oceans beyond what it basically now has through rain. The rain might flood some dry land somewhere and overflow the banks of the normal river or stream flow... but it eventually flows back to its normal ways or condition.

If the ice of both ice caps should melt, only then would the oceans rise, but it would only rise to about 206 ft from what it is today.

Thus, when it comes to the myth of the flood of Noah... it doesn't matter if it rained for 40 days to a 1,000 days. The ocean would not rise. If it is just rain. Yet, this bogus story claims that water covered the whole earth, and covered the mountains where the ark supposedly and eventually landed. On one of the mountains of the ancient Kingdom of Urartu, which is in modern Turkey and Antonia. Some of those mountains reach over 10,000 ft and some over 16,000 ft.

Thus, that didn't happen.

So how can a fundamentalist or a believer believe this story when these facts are before him?

2) To those of you that believe in this story, did you know that the bible has a time-line when the earth was created and by that timeline, the bible also claims the flood occurred in a certain year? According to this time-line, the flood happened in 2,507 BCE, give or take a bit, because no birthdays are given in this time-line.

Well, according to this story, the whole entire population of humanity was wiped out and killed by the flood. Likewise,  that all of mankind stems from Noah and his 3 sons and his 3 daughter-in-laws after the flood, which happened in 2,507 BCE.

Here is our problem... the ancient Egyptians have an unbroken chain of the kings and rulers over Egypt since 3,100 BCE, if not slightly older than that. So, if the flood was all over the globe and killed everyone, then why didn't it harm the Egyptians and other cultures? Maybe because it never happened on a global scale, rather it is more of a myth that got started after a terrible local flood that happened off the banks of the Euphrates River.

You can't ignore the Egyptian facts. Because the apologist would have to do some serious mental acrobatics to prove that the sons of Noah went down to Egypt and learned their language and culture and started it all back over again from scratch and also populating all of Egypt within mere months and days after the flood.

Nope, that probability is not happening.

Thus, based on these 2 things that I brought up shows and proves that the bible has hogwash in it. And those things should not be believed.

Maregaal
Jan 18, 2022
3:26 am